>> Bonnie: THIS WEEK ON "TO THE CONTRARY", SAFETY CONCERNS AS AT LEAST SIX WOMEN HAVE SEVERE SIDE EFFECTS, ONE OF THEM DYING, AFTER GETTING THE JOHNSON & JOHNSON VACCINE; THEN FIGHTING SEXUAL AND DOMESTIC VIOLENCE ON A NUMBER OF FRONTS.

[MUSIC] >> Bonnie: HELLO AND WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY".

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

UP FIRST THIS WEEK, WOMEN AND THE COVID VACCINE: INJECTIONS OF THE JOHNSON & JOHNSON COVID VACCINE POLLS THIS WEEK FOR THE FDA AND CDC TO REVIEW DATA ON SIX WOMEN WHO GOT BLOOD CLOTS WITHIN TWO WEEKS OF BEING INOCULATED.

ONE OF THE WOMEN DIED AND THE SECOND ONE IS IN CRITICAL CONDITION AT THE TIME OF THIS TAPING.

THE WOMEN WERE BETWEEN 18 AND 49 YEARS OLD.

WITH NEARLY 7 MILLION DOSES ADMINISTERED, 1 MILLION OF THEM TO WOMEN UNDER THE AGE OF 50.

HEALTH EXPERTS STILL BELIEVE THE J&J VACCINE RISK OF BLOOD CLOTS IS TINY, BUT JUST WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE TRIAL PARTICIPANTS WERE WOMEN?

15 PERCENT OF THE U.S.

PARTICIPANTS IN THE J&J TRIAL FOR HER SPINNAKER LATIN X, 13 PERCENT BLACK AND AFRICAN-AMERICAN, AND 6 PERCENT ASIAN AMERICAN.

PFIZER AND MODERNA HAD SIMILAR PERCENTAGES FOR BLACKS AND ASIAN AMERICANS, BUT A HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF HISPANICS.

TRIALS ON PREGNANT WOMEN ARE NOW UNDERWAY, AND MUCH OF THE RESEARCH REPORTEDLY IS POSITIVE FOR THE MOTHER AND ALSO THE BABIES.

PREGNANT AND LACTATING WOMEN WERE NOT INITIALLY INCLUDED.

WITH US TODAY ARE FORMER JUDGE AND FEDERAL PROSECUTOR DEBRA CARNAHAN; PATRICE ONWUKA OF THE INDEPENDENT WOMEN VOICES; GENEVIEVE WOOD OF THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION; AND DR. AVIS JONES-DEWEEVER, COFOUNDER OF MAX FLEX MEDIA.

HELLO, DR. DEWEEVER.

WAS POSTPONING THE USE OF THE J&J VACCINE A GOOD IDEA FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF WOMEN WHO MAY BE AFRAID TO BE TAKING ANY VACCINE?

>> Dr. DeWeever: YOU KNOW, THIS WAS A HARD CALL, OBVIOUSLY.

MAY HAVE SOME IMPACTS WHEN IT COMES TO FAXING HESITANCY, BUT I DO THINK THAT IS A GOOD SIGN THAT WE ARE LETTING SCIENCE LEAD THE WAY.

AND IN AN ABUNDANCE OF CAUTION, IT MAKES SENSE TO JUST TAKE A CLOSER LOOK AT THIS, TO DO EVERYTHING THAT WE CAN TO MAKE SURE THAT WE SAVE LIVES VERSUS HAVING SOMETHING COME UP THAT MIGHT CUT LIVES SHORT OUT OF UNINTENTIONAL CONSEQUENCES.

>> Bonnie: ANYBODY JUMP IN HERE.

WHO IS THE VILLAIN HERE?

IS IT THE FACT THAT WOMEN ARE UNDER TESTED IN DRUG TRIALS, INCLUDING IN VACCINE TRIALS?

WE DON'T HAVE FULL DATA YET?

BUT THE DATA DO SHOW FROM EARLIER STUDIES THAT WOMEN ARE UNDER TESTED ON THIS VACCINE AND, OF COURSE, WE KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN TESTOSTERONE IN MEN AND BODY WEIGHT AND THEN ESTROGEN IN WOMEN AND PROGESTERONE ARE REALLY MAKING DIFFERENCES IN HOW PEOPLE REACT TO DRUGS.

ANYONE CAN JUMP.

GENEVIEVE?

>> Genevieve: IS THE REAL BOAT VILLAIN IS COVID-19.

THAT WAS THE PROBLEM.

I MEAN, THAT THAT'S THE PROBLEM.

AND WE HAD SOMETHING THAT WAS KILLING A LOT OF AMERICANS AND A LOT OF PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD.

AND WE QUICKLY HAD TO ACT TO FIND A VACCINE.

BY ALL ACCOUNTS AND MEASURES, THINK WHAT WAS DONE IN TERMS OF DEVELOPMENT VACCINE WAS RIGHT.

YES, WE SHOULD BE CAUTIOUS, BUT THANK GOODNESS WE HAVE THREE OR FOUR OTHER VERSIONS THAT MEN AND WOMEN CAN BE TAKING AS WELL.

SO I THINK THE CONCERN IS WE HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL.

AND A DR. DEWEEVER SAID, WE DON'T WANT TO GIVE MIXED MESSAGING.

WE HAVE BEEN VERY HARD TO ENCOURAGE MORE PEOPLE TO GET VACCINATED SO WE CAN ALL MOVE ON.

AND SO WE WANT TO BE VERY CAREFUL WE DON'T COMMUNICATE THAT VACCINES AREN'T SAFE, WHETHER IT'S FOR COVID-19 OR MANY OTHERS.SO IT'S FINE I THINK TO MAYBE TAKE A PAUSE HERE, BUT WE HAVE TO KEEP IN MIND THESE WERE SIX INDIVIDUALS OUT OF -- >> Bonnie: OUT OF 7 MILLION.

>> Genevieve: RIGHT.

SO IT -- >> Bonnie: SO EVEN ADVOCATES OF USING THE VACCINE AND EVEN PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN SCIENCE, NOW THAT AN ADMINISTRATION THAT BELIEVES IN SCIENCE IS BACK RUNNING THE COUNTRY, EVEN THOSE, SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE ARE SAYING, THIS WAS SO INFINITESIMAL, IT WAS STUPID TO PAUSE ITS USE.

>> Debra: VERY IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO TRUST THAT OUR GOVERNMENT IS NOT HIDING ANYTHING, IT'S NOT HIDING ANY SIDE EFFECTS, AND WE DON'T NEED FOR, YOU KNOW, FOR MORE MORE WOMEN TO DIE TO SAY, OH, WOW, WE PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE HALTED IT.

ALSO, THERE IS A LOT OF THE OTHER TWO VACCINES.

AND THOUGH IT MAY DELAY A COUPLE WEEKS SOME PEOPLE GETTING THE VACCINE, TO KEEP THEIR GOOD PRACTICES AND MASKS AND SOCIAL DISTANCING IN PLACE UNTIL THEY CAN GET THEIR SECOND DOSE OR FIRST DOSE, IS NOT THAT MUCH OF A HARDSHIP TO ASK VERSUS LOSING ANOTHER WOMAN'S LIFE UNTIL WE KNOW MORE.

>> Patrice: WELL, THE FUNNY THING IS, BONNIE, WOMEN HAVE BEEN MUCH MORE RECEPTIVE TO THE VACCINE LANDMEN.

IT SEEMS LIKE MEN, PARTICULARLY YOUNG MEN WHO ARE THE ONES MOST HESITANT AND, FRANKLY, RESISTANT TO TAKE IT.

AND SO, PAUSING THE J&J VACCINE, WHICH IS A SINGLE DOSE, SO IT'S EASIER AND MORE LIKELY TO BE, YOU KNOW, DISTRIBUTED AND DOCTORS' OFFICES AND SCHOOLS POTENTIALLY IN THE FUTURE.

THOSE ARE EXACTLY THE PEOPLE WE WANT TO TARGET, YOUNG PEOPLE.

SO I ACTUALLY DISAGREE.

I THINK IT SHOULD NOT OF BEEN PAUSED.

I THINK IT SHOULD CONTINUE WITH FULL TRANSPARENCY.

AND WE STILL DO NOT EVEN ON THE CASES OF THE SIX PEOPLE, THE ONE OF WHOM PAST, IF THERE WERE OTHER FACTORS.

MAYBE THEY HAD UNDERLYING HEALTH CONDITIONS THAT CONTRIBUTED FAR MORE TO THEIR DEATH THAN THIS VACCINE.

I THINK IT'S CRITICALLY IMPORTANT, AND IN LOOKING AT MY FACEBOOK FEED, I AM SPEAKING FROM THE PEOPLE I KNOW IN MY LIVES, IT IS THE YOUNG MEN, PARTICULARLY YOUNG MEN OF COLOR, WHO SAY, OH, THERE YOU GO, MORE EVIDENCE THAT THESE VACCINES ARE OUT TO -- ARE DEADLY AND SHOULD NOT BE USED ON ANYONE.

>> Bonnie: DUEY THINK THAT THE VACCINE COMPANIES AND THE FDA REQUIRED ENOUGH TESTING BY GENDER AND ENOUGH WOMEN REPRESENTED, PEOPLE OF COLOR, APPARENTLY LATIN X ARE MUCH MORE LIKELY TO HAVE COMPLICATIONS THAN OTHER GROUPS OF PEOPLE.

WHY DIDN'T THEY TEST FOR GENDER AND RACE?

>> Dr. DeWeever: YOU KNOW, THIS IS IS SUCH A SITUATION WITH TESTING ANYWAY, NOT JUST WITH THIS VACCINE, BUT WITH THE ROLLOUT OF DRUGS IN THIS COUNTRY, PERIOD.

WE TYPICALLY HAVE WOMEN WHO ARE UNDERREPRESENTED IN TRIAL!

WE TYPICALLY HAVE BLACK PEOPLE AND OTHER PEOPLE OF COLOR WHO ARE UNDERREPRESENTED IN TRIALS.

IN THE SITUATION WAS SO UNIQUE IN THAT YOU HAD THIS WORLDWIDE EPIDEMIC THAT NEEDED TO BE ADDRESSED AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE, THAT EVEN UNDER THE BEST SITUATIONS, YOU KNOW, WE WOULD NOT HAVE LIKELY HAD THE LEVEL OF REPRESENTATION THAT WE WOULD HAVE WANTED AND UNDER THE SIX MEDIATED SENSE, WE DEFINITELY DID NOT.

BUT YOUR POINT HERE THAT YOU MADE PREVIOUSLY, BONNIE, I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO GET: THIS HAS IMPACTED LESS THAN 1 MILLION PEOPLE, ONE IN A MILLION PEOPLE.

LESS THAN ONE IN A MILLION PEOPLE HAVE SUFFERED THE DELETERIOUS EFFECTS THAT THEY HAVE CAUSED THE DISTRIBUTION OF THIS VACCINE FOR, AND IT MAKES ME THAT MUCH MORE CONFIDENT IN THIS GOVERNMENT AND THIS ADMINISTRATION TO SAY THAT THEY ARE NOT TRYING TO HIDE THIS, THAT THEY ARE DOING THIS -- EVEN WITH THIS VERY INTESTINAL IMPACT, VERY NEGATIVE IMPACT THAT THEY ARE GOING OUT OF THEIR WAY TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY ARE BEING AS SAFE AS POSSIBLE WITH IT.

IT MAKES ME TRUST THE MORE MOVING FORWARD RATHER THAN TRUST UNLESS.

>> Patrice: LAST YEAR, WE SAW A LOT OF WEAPONIZATION OF THE DEVELOPMENT OF THESE VACCINES IN GENERAL.

AND IT'S UNFORTUNATE THAT DURING A PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN, YOU HAD CANDIDATES, PARTICULARLY WHO ARE NOW IN OFFICE, SAYING THEY WOULD NOT TRUST THE DEVELOPMENT OF VACCINES IF IT WAS UNDER THE CURRENT PRESIDENT.

SO I THINK SOME OF THAT FED INTO I THINK SOME OF THE HESITANCY WE ARE SEEING TODAY.

AND IT'S UNFORTUNATE.

AND I DO THINK MAYBE, MAYBE THAT CONTRIBUTED TO WHY YOU DID NOT SEE AS MANY PEOPLE PARTICIPATING IN THE VACCINE TRIALS.

BUT HOPE TO SEE MORE PEOPLE OF COLOR AND MORE WOMEN REPRESENTED IN THE FUTURE.

>> Dr. DeWeever: ANDERSON BY THE LACK OF TRUST WAS THERE.

WAS NOT ALSO THE FACT THAT THE PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATION TOLD WELL OVER 30,000 DOCUMENTED LIES UNTIL THEY STOPPED COUNTING THEM.

AND SO, THERE IS A REASON WHY THERE WAS NOT TRUST THERE.

HOWEVER, THIS IS EXACTLY WHY THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS HAD A STARK CONTRAST, BECAUSE INSTEAD -- IF THIS WOULD'VE HAPPENED, I'LL BE HONEST WITH YOU, UNDER THE PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATION, BUT WE PROBABLY WOULDN'T HAVE KNOWN.

THIS IS THE ADMINISTRATION THAT ALLOWED OVER HALF A MILLION PEOPLE TO DIE BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T ADDRESS THIS ISSUE DIRECTLY.

SO THERE WAS A REASON FOR THAT LACK OF TRUST.

IT DIDN'T JUST COME OUT OF THE ETHER.

>> Bonnie: BUT LET ME JUST THROW ANYONE LESS POSSIBILITY: WHAT IF THE GOVERNMENT HAD SAID, WE ARE NOT STOPPING THE DISTRIBUTION OF J&J.

PARTICULARLY, LET'S REMEMBER THAT UNDERSERVED COUNTRIES, THAT WAS WHERE MOST OF THAT VACCINE WAS GOING TO GO TO.

WE ARE JUST GOING TO TELL YOU THAT THERE IS LESS THAN A ONE IN A MILLION CHANCE AS A WOMAN THAT YOU WILL DEVELOP BLOOD, BLOOD CLOTS AND THERE MIGHT BE DIFFICULT SCENARIOS AFTER THAT.

WE HAVE LOST ONE WOMAN TO THE SITUATION.

WE DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT CAUSED IT EXCEPT THAT SHE WAS ONE OF SIX WITH BLOOD CLOT REACTIONS TO THE VACCINE OUT OF ABOUT 7 MILLION PEOPLE WHO WERE ADMINISTERED.

WHY NOT DO IT THAT WAY?

>> Debra: OR WHY NOT JUST ALLOW MEN TO GET THE JOHNSON & JOHNSON VACCINE AND TELL WOMEN THEY CANNOT HAVE IT UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE?

>> Bonnie: RIGHT.

I MEAN, THAT'S ANOTHER VERY, VERY GOOD IDEA THAT WOULDN'T HAVE THROWN EVERYTHING INTO THIS BIG SORT OF PANIC MOTIVE, OH, MY GOD, YOU KNOW, WHAT -- >> Genevieve: BONNIE, WE HAVE TO KEEP IN MIND THAT THIS IS A VERY UNUSUAL PAST YEAR WHERE FROM THE VERY GET-GO, THERE WAS SO MUCH THAT WE DID NOT KNOW.

I'M NOT GOING TO SAY THE LAST ADMINISTRATION, I THINK I'M VERY THANKFUL FOR THE REASON WE ACTUALLY HAD THE VACCINES IN THE FIRST PLACE.

AND SECONDLY, THE LINE STARTED WITH CHINA.

[INAUDIBLE] AND FROM THE GET-GO, ALL OF OUR LEADERS INCLUDING DR. FAUCI AND OTHERS ON THE SCIENCE FRONT, THEY DID NOT KNOW ALL THE ANSWERS EITHER.

THEY HAVE TALK OUT OF BOTH SIDES OF THEIR MOUTHS MULTIPLE TIMES.

AND I'M NOT SAYING THEY DID THAT ON PURPOSE, IT'S BECAUSE MANY TIMES PEOPLE WERE ASKED QUESTIONS THAT FRANKLY DID NOT HAVE THE REALLY SOLID ANSWERS TO YET.

AND BECAUSE OF THAT, I THINK PEOPLE, INCLUDING THIS ADMINISTRATION NOW, SOMETHING LIKE THIS COMES OUT AND THEY ARE JUST WORRIED, WHAT IF WE SAY THE WRONG THING NOW?AND, LOOK, I THINK THE EVIDENCE SO FAR SCIENTIFICALLY WOULD SAY WE SHOULD NOT HAVE STOPPED IT AND THAT WE SHOULD ALLOW PEOPLE TO CONTINUE TO TAKE IT.

AGAIN, THANKFULLY ARE MULTIPLE VERSIONS OUT THERE.

MILLIONS OF AMERICANS HAVE HAD AT LEAST ONE DOSE AND THE ELDERLY POPULATION, BOTH DOSES.

SO WE ARE HEADED IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

I THINK WE SHOULD KEEP HEADING THAT WAY AND NOT TRY TO LAY BLAME ANYBODY WE SEE.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.

FROM THE COVID VACCINE AND WOMEN TO ENDING SEXUAL ASSAULT: THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS ADDRESSING SEXUAL ASSAULT IN THE MILITARY AND IN SCHOOLS.

THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION ANNOUNCED IT WILL HOLD PUBLIC HEARINGS ON HOW SCHOOLS SHOULD HANDLE SEXUAL MISCONDUCT CASES.

IT IS THE FIRST STEP IN A PLANNED OVERHAUL OF THE TITLE IX REGULATIONS.

ALSO, DESPITE TOP MILITARY OFFICIALS PLEDGING ZERO-TOLERANCE, THEY CONTINUE TO OPPOSE OVERALL ING THE MILITARY SYSTEM FOR TRYING SEXUAL ASSAULT, BUT THAT COULD BE CHANGING GIVEN NEW SINGLES FROM THE WHITE HOUSE AND INCREASED FOCUS ON SEXUAL ASSAULT, THAT FOLLOWING THE #METOO MOVEMENT.

ONE WOMAN, AN AWARD-WINNING FILMMAKER WHO SURVIVED INTIMATE SEXUAL VIOLENCE, TOLD "TO THE CONTRARY" DOMESTIC AND SEXUAL VIOLENCE ARE HARD TO ADDRESS.

>> IT'S BEEN HARD FOR VICTIMS AND SURVIVORS TO TALK ABOUT.

THE DETAILS ARE EMBARRASSING.

THEY ARE HUMILIATING.

BUT I FEEL THAT THE MORE PEOPLE TALK ABOUT THEIR EXPERIENCES WITH DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, THE CLOSER WE CAN GET TO UNDERSTANDING THE SCOPE OF THE PROBLEM AND ALSO TO FINDING SOLUTIONS.

THE PANDEMIC HAS ONLY HEIGHTENED THIS CRISIS, WHERE WE SAW AROUND THE WORLD VICTIMS BEING STUCK IN LOCKDOWN WITH THEIR ABUSERS AND, IN FACT, DOMESTIC VIOLENCE INCIDENTS IS RISING OVER THE WORLD.

>> Bonnie: TONYA SILVA RATHNAM WROTE, ASSUME NOTHING, A STORY OF INTIMATE VIOLENCE.

SHE WRITES ABOUT THE ABUSE IN HER RELATIONSHIP WITH FORMER NEW YORK STATE ATTORNEY GENERAL ERIC SCHNEIDER THAT INCLUDED ISA REASON, MANIPULATION AND SEX THAT TURNED VIOLENT.

SHE WAS SHOCKED, BECAUSE SCHNEIDERMAN WAS A WOMEN'S RIGHTS ADVOCATE INVOLVED IN THE INVESTIGATION OF PRODUCER HARVEY WEINSTEIN.

THE CASE THAT KICKED OFF THE #METOO MOVEMENT.

SEVERAL WOMEN HAVE STEPPED FORWARD WITH SIMILAR CHARGES AGAINST HIM.

>> EVEN FIERCE WOMEN GET ABUSED.

ABUSERS ARE OF ALL STRIPES.

I WAS WITH SOMEBODY WHO PUBLIC FACING WAS A FEMINIST, AND ADVOCATE FOR VULNERABLE COMMUNITIES, BUT PRIVATELY HE ABUSED ME.

AND HE IS I SAY THE FRUIT, NOT THE ROOT, OF THIS TYPE OF BEHAVIOR.

IT'S THE CONDITIONING BY THE PATRIARCHY TO NORMALIZE THE CYCLE OF VIOLENCE FROM THE TIME THAT WE ARE BORN.

AND PART OF MY BOOK IS MY PART TO BRING DOWN THE PATRIARCHY.

>> Bonnie: SCHNEIDERMAN WAS NEVER CHARGED CRIMINALLY, BUT THE CASE PROMPTED THE PROPOSAL OF NEW LEGISLATION.

SELVARATNAM'S BOOK INCLUDES RESOURCES THAT WE WILL POST ON THE "TO THE CONTRARY" WEBSITE AS PART OF SEXUAL ASSAULT AWARENESS MONTH, WHICH IS APRIL.

SO, DEBRA CARNAHAN, WITH TITLE IX, WHICH SHOULD BE THE FIRST STEPS?

>> Debra: FIRST OF ALL, I WANT TO APPLIED THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION FOR ADJUSTING THIS HEAD-ON.

THERE ARE SO MANY ISSUES THAT THEY COULD TAKE UP BUT OBVIOUSLY THIS IS NEAR AND DEAR TO THE PRESIDENT'S HEART, BECAUSE HE WORKED ON THIS ISSUE WHEN HE WAS VICE PRESIDENT AND REDOING GUIDELINES.

THEY ARE SO MANY THINGS THAT NEED TO BE DONE, BUT ONE OF THEM HAS TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT THE VICTIMS ARE ALLOWED THROUGH 1/3 PARTY TO BE ABLE TO CROSS EXAMINE THE PEOPLE THAT THEY ARE ACCUSING OF THIS CRIME, TO NOT BE ABLE TO CROSS-EXAMINE REALLY TIES YOUR HANDS BEHIND YOUR BACK.

IT'S JUST ONE PERSON'S WORD AGAINST THE OTHER, YOU KNOW, PREPARED STATEMENTS.

SO I THINK THAT'S A HUGE POINT THAT THEY WANT TO CHANGE.

THE OTHER THING THAT I REALLY DO LIKE IS THEY ARE ASKING FOR INPUT FROM EDUCATORS, FROM STUDENTS, FROM PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN SEXUALLY ASSAULTED ON CAMPUSES AND WHAT THEIR EXPERIENCE HAS BEEN.

SO I THINK THOSE ARE REALLY THREE STRONG POINTS THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS DOING RIGHT NOW.

>> Bonnie: ANYBODY, HOW SHOULD BE DEALT WITH IN SCHOOLS?

>> Patrice: WELL, BONNIE, I WOULD LIKE TO SAY THAT I THINK THE PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATION DID SOMETHING IMPORTANT WHEN IT COMES TO HOW CASES ON -- ARE HANDLED ON CAMPUSES.

NUMBER ONE, YOU KNOW, THIS ASSUMPTION OF INNOCENCE, YOU KNOW, MOVING THE, MOVING IT BACK TO THE SITUATION WHERE IF YOU ARE ACCUSED, YOU ARE NOT SUDDENLY JUST ACCUSED IN TRIED AND FOUND GUILTY RIGHT AWAY, BUT IT'S AT LEAST YOU ARE GIVEN SOME SORT OF FAIRNESS AND A PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE.

AND THEN, YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE ARE OTHER, THERE ARE OTHER MEASURES THAT WERE TAKEN TO AT LEAST GIVE THOSE STUDENTS WHO HAVE BEEN ACCUSED, PARTICULARLY MALE STUDENTS, THE RIGHT TO BE ABLE TO DEFEND THEMSELVES.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO TAKE AWAY THE RIGHTS OF THE VICTIMS IN THE SITUATION, BUT YOU ALSO WANT TO ENSURE THAT THERE IS A BALANCE AND THERE IS FAIRNESS ON BOTH PARTS.

AND I HOPE THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WOULD NOT DO ANYTHING TO ERODE THOSE CHANGES.

>> Bonnie: OKAY.

BUT SHOULD THAT BE APPLIED SIMILARLY AND UNIVERSITIES AND IN HIGH SCHOOLS, OR IS THERE GIVEN AN AGE DIFFERENCE, SHOULD THERE BE GREATER PROTECTIONS FOR WOMEN WHO COME OUT AND MAKE ALLEGATIONS OF SEXUAL ASSAULT, LIKE IN HIGH SCHOOL RATHER THAN COLLEGE?

>> Patrice: WELL, I WOULD THINK THAT HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS, AS LONG AS YOU ARE UNDER AGE, THOSE ARE CERTAINLY -- THAT'S CERTAINLY DIFFERENT STANDARD.

WHEN YOU'RE 18 AND ABOVE AND ARE ABLE TO MAKE, YOU KNOW, DECISIONS FOR YOURSELF AS AN ADULT AND A THINKING ADULT, I THINK THEN THE SITUATION IS A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT.

BUT TO TREAT HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS AND COLLEGE STUDENTS DIFFERENTLY OR TREAT THEM THE SAME, I SEE SOME PITFALLS THERE.

>> Bonnie: WHAT ABOUT -- GO AHEAD.

>> Debra: I WAS GOING TO SAY I THINK IT'S A.

TO PROTECT THE ACCUSER AND THE ACCUSED, BOTH.

AND I DO THINK THERE SHOULD BE A PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE.

WE SHOULD NOT CHANGE THAT STANDARD.

BUT IT IS AN ADMINISTRATIVE TYPE PROCEEDING.

WE ARE NOT IN A COURT OF LAW.

SO WE HAVE TO BE VERY, VERY CAREFUL TO PROTECT THE ACCUSER FROM RAMIFICATIONS, IDENTITY ISSUES, UNTIL IT'S WORKED OUT.

AND I THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE SOME PROTECTIONS PUT IN PLACE.

FOR EXAMPLE, WHAT IF THE ACCUSED AND THE ACCUSER ARE IN THE SAME CLASSROOM?

YOU KNOW, AND I HAVE TO CONTINUE THEIR CLASSES, WHAT SHOULD BE THE COURSE?

SHOULD THEY HAVE TO, LIKE, ZOOM IN AND NOT SHOW UP UNTIL IT CAN BE RESOLVED SO THEY ARE NOT PHYSICALLY IN THE SAME ROOM TOGETHER?

THOSE THINGS NEED TO BE ADDRESSED.

>> Bonnie: .,THERE ARE SO MANY, MANY THINK ABOUT IT, THEY ARE SO MANY DETAILS LIKE THAT THAT YOU COULDN'T POSSIBLY, YOU KNOW, IN ADVANCE PROTECT AGAINST EVERY SINGLE SITUATION THAT COULD COME UP, CORRECT?

>> Debra: RIGHT.

BUT IT IS, IT IS IMPORTANT TO LOOK AT IT IN THAT CONTEXT, BECAUSE IN SCHOOLS, YOU ARE IN A VERY, VERY TIGHT AREA AND WILL RUN INTO EACH OTHER.

SO THAT DOES NEED TO BE ADDRESSED AS TO HOW TO ALLOW THE VICTIM, ACCUSER, FROM NOT HAVING TO CONSTANTLY SEE AND BE AROUND THIS PERSON AND ALSO KEEP THEIR ANONYMITY.

>> Bonnie: WHAT ABOUT -- >> Genevieve: BONNIE -- >> Bonnie: LET'S SWITCH AND AFTER THE MILITARY SEXUAL ASSAULT.

I REMEMBER SENATOR KRISTEN CHILDREN, DEMOCRAT OF NEW YORK, WHEN SHE WAS ONE OF THE EARLY CONTENDERS FOR PRESIDENT AND SHE DROPPED OUT EARLY ON.

ONE OF HER, SHE WAS TRYING TO CHANGE THE FEDERAL AND MILITARY SEXUAL ASSAULT TO TAKE IT OUT OF THE CHAIN OF COMMAND.

IN OTHER WORDS, IF YOUR, YOU KNOW, COMMITTING OFFICER DID SOMETHING, YOU KNOW, SEXUALLY ASSAULTED YOU AND THEN YOU HAVE TO GO BACK TO THAT PERSON AND COMPLAIN ABOUT IT, ISN'T THAT KIND OF RIDICULOUS?

BUT HER AMENDMENT WAS DEFEATED.

SO SHOULD WE DO SOMETHING ABOUT THAT?

>> Debra: YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.

WHEN THAT CAME UP, BACK THEN AND WE DISCUSSED IT ON YOUR SHOW, AND I KNOW CLAIRE McCASKILL, THE FORMER SENATOR FROM MISSOURI WHO WAS ONLY ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE, TOOK A VERY STRONG STAND ON THIS AS WELL, BECAUSE THE PAST HAS NOT WORKED.

GOING UP THE CHAIN OF COMMAND HAS NOT WORKED.

SO THE SYSTEM THAT THE MILITARY HAS IN PLACE NEEDS TO BE REVAMPED.

IT NEEDS TO BE TAKEN TO SOME SORT OF CIVILIAN TRIBUNAL THAT GETS IT OUT OF THE RANK AND FILE.

AND THEN WHATEVER THE TRIBUNAL WOULD DECIDE, THEN THE COMMANDERS AND THE CHAIN OF COMMAND WOULD HAVE TO ABIDE BY.

>> Bonnie: OKAY.

LET'S SWITCH FOR A MOMENT TO MATT GAETZ.

NOW, SHOULD HE BE CHARGED WITH PROSTITUTION AND SEX TRAFFICKING?

AND IF THIS IS STILL GOING ON AT THESE LEVELS OF GOVERNMENT, WHAT IS IT GOING TO TAKE TO END IT?

>> Debra: WELL, IT'S GOING TO TAKE A LOT TO ENDED.

>> Dr. DeWeever: ABSOLUTELY.

>> Bonnie: AVIS, GO AHEAD.

TRY TO TAKE -- OF A RESPONSE TO THAT.

BECAUSE IT'S AN IMPORTANT QUESTION.

WHEN YOU'RE IN CONGRESS AND YOU'RE DEALING WITH SEXUAL TRAFFICKING?

MEAN, COME ON.

>> Dr. DeWeever: IT TAKES CONSEQUENCES, NUMBER ONE.

IT TAKES CONSEQUENCES.

AND EVEN BEYOND -- THE SEX TRAFFICKING IS LIKE WAY BEYOND THE PALE.

SO THIS ISN'T -- IS AN ACCUSATION, HE HAS NOT BEEN CHARGED YET.

WE DON'T KNOW, BUT WE HAVE ALSO HEARD THAT HE WAS ACTUALLY SHOWING PICTURES OF WOMEN THAT HE HAD RELATIONSHIPS WITH, NAKED PICTURES OF WOMEN THAT HE HAD RELATIONSHIPS WITH TWO OTHER CONGRESSPEOPLE ON THE FLOOR OF THE HOUSE.

HOW HAS HE NOT BEEN EXPELLED?

YOU KNOW, HOW HAS THAT NOT BEEN SOMETHING THAT HIS COLLEAGUES TOOK HIM TO TASK FOR?

>> Debra: WELL, THERE IS A NEW SHERIFF IN TOWN, DOCTOR.

>> Dr. DeWeever: I'M SORRY?

>> Debra: THERE IS A NEW SHERIFF IN TOWN.

AND, YOU KNOW, THE HOUSE WAS CONTROLLED STILL BY DEMOCRATS WHEN THIS IS HAPPENING WHEN YOU LOOK TO THE ETHICS COMMITTEE, AND CERTAINLY EARLY IN CONGRESS, RIGHT, WE HAVE OUR OWN ABILITY THERE TO DO OUR OWN POLICING THROUGH THE ETHICS COMMITTEE AND HAVE HIM BE BROUGHT UP ON ETHICS CHARGES AND HAVE THEM LOOK INTO IT THAT MIGHT RESULT IN HIS LOSING COMMITTEES, SEAT ASSIGNMENTS, OR EVEN BEING EXPELLED FROM CONGRESS.

>> Dr. DeWeever: ABSOLUTELY.

BUT I'M SUGGESTING IS THAT HIS COLLEAGUES, HOW IS IT THAT NO ONE IN HIS CIRCLE OF COLLEAGUES -- I GUESS MAYBE HE KNEW WHO TO SHOW IT TO, BUT HOW IS IT THAT NO ONE IN HIS CIRCLE OF COLLEAGUES, BUT OTHER REPUBLICANS -- LET ME BE VERY SPECIFIC -- WHO HE SHOWED THEM TO, HOW COME NONE OF THEM HAD THE MORAL FIBER TO SAY THIS IS WRONG, THIS IS DISGUSTING, AND I'M NOT GOING TO SIT HERE AND RUBBERSTAMP IT BY KEEPING MY MOUTH CLOSED AND HAVING THIS GO ON WITHOUT YOU BEING ABLE TO BE BROUGHT TO TASK IN TERMS OF CONSEQUENCES?

IF NANCY PELOSI DOESN'T KNOW ABOUT IT, FOR EXAMPLE, IT'S NOTHING SHE CAN DO ABOUT IT.

BUT THE PEOPLE THAT HE SHOWED IT TO KNEW ABOUT IT.

HOW WAS ALL OF THEM ARE MORALLY BANKRUPT?

THAT IS PROBLEM THE WORD ALL RIGHT.

BUT AGAIN, GOING BACK TO YOUR EARLIER POINT, HE IS NOT YET BEEN CONVICTED.

I MEAN, JUST BECAUSE -- EVEN IF THIS CASE GOES BACK TO TRIAL, IT'S NOT ENOUGH YET TO THROW OF CONGRESS.

DOESN'T HE HAVE TO BE CONVICTED FIRST?

>> Dr. DeWeever: ASK AL FRANKEN THAT QUESTION.

>> Debra: YEAH, NO.

HE DOES NOT HAVE TO BE CONVICTED FIRST IN A COURT OF LAW TO BE THROWN OUT OF CONGRESS, TO BE CENSURED, TO BE STRIPPED OF COMMITTEE ASSIGNMENTS PENDING A CRIMINAL OUTCOME.

I MEAN, THEY CAN EXPEL HIM FROM CONGRESS 50 ETHICS COMMITTEE REP, YOU KNOW, RECOMMENDS THAT.

>> Bonnie: I AGREE WITH YOU ABOUT TAKING AWAY COMMITTEE ASSIGNMENTS, ETC.

BUT I'M NOT SAYING THAT THIS IS A LEGAL REQUIREMENT BUT A MORAL REQUIREMENT.

YOU DON'T WANT TO SEE HIM CONVICTED FIRST?

I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY IF THE FORMER SENATOR, YOU REFERRED TO, AVIS, LEFT BECAUSE HIS PARTY PRESSURED THE HECK OUT OF HIM TO LEAVE AND THERE WAS A LOT OF TALK AFTERWARDS, BUT MAYBE WHAT HE DID DID NOT AMOUNT TO SOMETHING THAT SHOULD COST HIM HIS SENATE SEAT.

>> Dr. DeWeever: SO THIS EXAMPLE IS EXACTLY WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.

WHEN WE SAW WHAT HAPPENED WITH AL FRANKEN, HE DID NOT GO THROUGH THE WHOLE PROCESS, BUT IT WAS BECAUSE HE WAS UNDER PEER PRESSURE, WHETHER YOU AGREE WITH IT OR NOT.

I DON'T HAPPEN TO AGREE WITH YOU PERSONALLY.

BUT WHETHER YOU AGREE WITH IT OR NOT, HE WAS UNDER A PEER PRESSURE THAT WAS SET BY THE MORAL STANDARD OF HIS PARTY.

AND WHAT I'M SAYING IS THAT I DON'T SEE ANY MORAL STANDARD WHEN IT COMES TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, WHICH IS WHY GAETZ STILL HAS HIS POSITION TODAY.

>> Bonnie: THAT IS AN INTERESTING QUESTION WHITE DEMOCRATS JUMP IN SO QUICKLY ON FRANKEN AND WE DO NOT SEE ANY REPUBLICANS SO FAR SAYING THAT GAETZ MUST RESIGN.

BUT I ASSUME THAT WELL, YOU KNOW, IF HE GETS PROSECUTED, THAT WILL HAPPEN NEXT.

BUT ANYWAY, THANK YOU ALL.

THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION.

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